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Transcript of=20 Discussion Between U.S. Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia=20 and
Stephen Breyer -- AU Washington College of Law, Jan.=20 13


AMERICAN UNIVERSITY = WASHINGTON=20 COLLEGE OF LAW


U.S. = ASSOCIATION=20 OF CONSTITUTIONAL LAW DISCUSSION


SUBJECT: CONSTITUTIONAL RELEVANCE OF FOREIGN COURT = DECISIONS=20



MODERATOR: =
NORMAN DORSEN, FOUNDER AND PRESIDENT, U.S. = ASSOCIATION OF=20 CONSTITUTIONAL LAW


PARTICIPANTS:=20
ANTONIN SCALIA, ASSOCIATE JUSTICE, = U.S.=20 SUPREME COURT;
STEPHEN BREYER, = ASSOCIATE=20 JUSTICE, U.S. SUPREME COURT


LOCATION:=20
AMERICAN UNIVERSITY, WASHINGTON = COLLEGE OF=20 LAW,
WASHINGTON, D.C. =

TIME: 4:10 P.M. EST

DATE:=20 THURSDAY, JANUARY 13, 2005

Transcript=20 by:
Federal News=20 Service
Washington,=20 D.C.


MR. CLAUDIO = GROSSMAN=20 (DEAN, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY WASHINGTON COLLEGE OF LAW): (Off mike) = -- it's=20 my pleasure and honor to see all of you here participating in this = historic event, a conversation on the relevance of foreign law for = American constitutional adjudication, with the Honorable United = States=20 Supreme Court Justices Antonin Scalia and Stephen Breyer, two = towering=20 figures of the U.S. Supreme Court. Their presence alone would be = enough to=20 honor any law school and to justify this event. But today's = program is=20 especially important because it involves, among other things, the=20 interplay between international law, comparative law, and domestic = law.=20 These issues are crucial in today's age of globalization for they = relate=20 to sovereignty, the relationship between domestic and = international=20 concerns, and ultimately our theories and concepts underlying = sovereign=20 international law and democratic government.

Our school's views are presentations of our time, = like this=20 one, as a vital component of our mission, which includes creating = a domain=20 for facilitating a better understanding of the importance of the = rule of=20 law in society. Because of the caliber of today's participants, = and the=20 nature of the issues to be discussed, this debate is perhaps the = most=20 important event thus far in advancing this goal. At the same time, = I'm=20 proud to announce that during the spring semester we will have = more than=20 40 conferences and seminars on cutting edge topics involving our = own=20 faculty who have worked on constitutional and international law = throughout=20 the world.

Today's event is = crucial also=20 because of the importance of its co-sponsor, the U.S. Association = of=20 Constitutional Law, which is the organization that represents the=20 Constitutional Law Faculty in this country, and of which our own = noted=20 scholar Professor Kenneth Anderson is the treasurer. Programming = of=20 academic institutions with associations of scholars, lawyers and = other=20 professionals is crucial to strengthening the necessary links = between the=20 world of scholarship and practice.

Now,=20 please allow me to introduce Michel Rosenfeld, a founding member = and=20 president of the United States Association of Constitutional Law, = the=20 Justice Sidney L. Robinson Professor of Human Rights at Benjamin = N.=20 Cardozo School of Law in New York, and the editor-in-chief of the=20 International Journal of Constitutional Law.

Michel, please join us here. (Applause.) =

MR. MICHEL ROSENFELD: Thank you very much, Dean = Grossman, and I=20 want to thank the Washington College of Law of American University = for=20 agreeing to co-sponsor this event, and for having done such a = magnificent=20 job of organization, and of having publicized this, and the = interest among=20 students and faculty has been enormous as we have seen since we = arrived in=20 Washington. I want to, on behalf of the United States Association = of=20 Constitutional Law to thank, above all, the two Justices, Justices = Scalia=20 and Breyer, for agreeing to having this conversation, and I want = to tell=20 you a few words about our association.

Our=20 association was created in 1996 to become an affiliate of the=20 International Association of Constitutional Law which is an = association of=20 approximately -- that comprises lawyers and constitutional = lawyers,=20 judges, legislators, and others interested in constitutional law = from=20 about 80 countries, and that has yearly meetings throughout the = world, and=20 every four years an International Congress. The last Congress was = in=20 Chile, which is the native country of Claudio Grossman, and had = more than=20 500 constitutionalists from 62 countries. The U.S. association was = created=20 because there was a felt need to have another organization besides = the ALS=20 Constitutional Law Section to be able to include people who are = not law=20 professors in that association. And so, I'm very proud to say that = we=20 have, as honorary members, both Justices, Justice Scalia and = Justice=20 Breyer are honorary members of our association, and we are very = proud and=20 gratified that they've accepted that. And we have, in addition, a = large=20 number of judges, federal judges, as well as state supreme court = judges,=20 as well as law professors, of course, but also professors in other = fields=20 such as political science with an interest in constitutional law, = and=20 selected practitioners.

We have = had=20 several events, and we have come to fill a need, an increasing = need of=20 exchange with other lawyers and constitutionalists from other = parts of the=20 world. The interest in comparative constitutional law, and in what = is=20 happening in other countries has increased in the United States, = and I=20 think it's a testimony to that that we have this conversation = today, and=20 that the enormous interest for it that it has demonstrated = already.=20

I want to just say one more = thing, which=20 is that we have for a long time, in going to international = meetings, I've=20 been going to the meetings of the International Association of = which I am=20 the immediate past president for almost two decades, and there has = always=20 been a great deal of interest in what the United States, and in = particular=20 the United States Supreme Court is doing in its cases. And now, = there has=20 been, in the last few years, a little bit of interest in the = opposite=20 direction.

I would just give you = one=20 anecdote in terms of how influential the Supreme Court of the = United=20 States is abroad. First of all, many people in very important = countries=20 have told me the individual Justices on the U.S. Supreme Court are = much=20 better known in our own country than our own constitutional court = or=20 supreme court justices. It's not in every country, by the way, = that the=20 two Supreme Court Justices that are sitting with us have their = picture in=20 the New York Times front page twice, not once, as it was this = morning.=20

And I will give an anecdote from = 1989, the=20 International Association had a meeting in Moscow in which -- and = this was=20 in the middle of Perestroika, and the Soviet Union was evolving = what it=20 didn't know perhaps was to its end. But, we were assured by the = Russian=20 constitutionalists at that meting that there was a treat deal of=20 improvement in the Soviet Union in terms of individual rights, and = that=20 they had even adopted the Miranda rule, this was to show us that = there was=20 a real change in the Soviet Union.

Fast=20 forward to 2001, I think, when the United States Supreme Court was = hosting=20 nine judges of the European Court of Justice, and I was fortunate = enough=20 to accompany the European judges on part of their trip, and we = went to the=20 oral argument in the Dickerson case, and the judges from the = European=20 court said, what is this about? And I said, well, the question has = been=20 raised as to whether the court should overrule Miranda. They = looked at me=20 as if this was an international institution. The United States is = known=20 throughout the world for its Miranda decision, how can that be = possible.=20

Anyhow, we will hear today the = other side=20 of the story.

The last thing I'd = like to=20 do is to introduce Norman Dorsen, who was my predecessor, and the = founding=20 president of the U.S. Association of Constitutional Law. It has = been said=20 that the justices don't need introduction. It's very difficult to = find a=20 law professor who can match that -- what one can say the same = thing about,=20 but Norman Dorsen certainly is that person. He has been president = of the=20 ACLU, active in constitutional litigation, constitutional = scholarship, and=20 in more recent years he's been involved in the areas of = comparative and=20 international law, and creating a global law school, and in = creating this=20 association. He was the instrumental member, with Lou Henkin, for = the=20 creation of the U.S. association. And I am very proud that he has = been, of=20 course, instrumental in bringing this about, and that he will = moderate=20 this panel.

Norman, I turn the = microphone=20 to you. Thank you.

MR. DORSEN: = Thanks very=20 much Claudio and Michel. Our speakers obviously need no = introduction and=20 the only thing I'm going to say about them is they have a = remarkably=20 similar background in many respects. They both graduated with high = honors=20 from Harvard Law School. They both spend considerable time working = in=20 government after law school, Justice Scalia in the Department of = Justice,=20 Justice Breyer as Chief Counsel of the Senate Judiciary Committee. = And=20 both served for some years in the U.S. Court of Appeals, Justice = Scalia in=20 the District of Columbia, Justice Breyer in the First Circuit. = Perhaps=20 most important, they were both very distinguished law professors = for many=20 years, Justice Scalia at the University of Virginia and Chicago = Law=20 Schools, and Justice Breyer at Harvard Law School. =

Please give us an introductory round of applause.=20

(Applause.)

Dean Grossman has already given some reasons why the = subject=20 before us is of considerable importance. I will not add to those = reasons,=20 even though there are other reasons. I do want to say that it is = important=20 to recognize that since the early 19th Century, Supreme Court = cases have=20 relied, without much fuss and fanfare, on certain foreign = materials. For=20 example, the court in 1855 said that the English Magna Carta was = relevant=20 to a case. And more recently, in the 1960s the court relied on the = so-called English Judges' Rules.

Very=20 recently a majority of the present justices, and maybe all, have = written=20 and joined opinions that rely on foreign materials, including = opinions=20 written by Justice O'Connor, Justice Kennedy, and Chief Justice = Rehnquist.=20 And one journalist was quoted as saying, there is now a new = attentiveness=20 by the Supreme Court to legal developments in the rest of the = world, but=20 not so fast. There are now and probably always have been those who = oppose=20 this internationalizing trend, unconvinced of the relevance of = foreign=20 materials to U.S. circumstances, and in particular to U.S. = constitutional=20 law. Strong voices, including most notably Justice Scalia's, have=20 protested to what some suggest an expanding trend in U.S. = constitutional=20 law. It is important to recognize that it is not only = conservatives who=20 have taken this position. A prominent liberal law professor has = recently=20 written that any effort to import international norms into = American=20 constitutional law is largely a waste of time. =

So much for my introductory remarks. This is a = conversation=20 between two leading Supreme Court justices, and I'm sure we agree = that we=20 should allow Scalia to be Scalia and Breyer to be Breyer, with = very little=20 -- (inaudible). But the justices have agreed that at the outset I = should=20 put a few questions on the table and perhaps interpolate one or = more=20 questions as we go forward.

So, = what I'm=20 going to do is state a few questions so that the justices can = choose=20 which, if any, to respond to, and begin their conversation, or, of = course,=20 they can ignore completely what I'm saying. (Laughter.) So, here = are a=20 series of questions, and then, of course, I'll turn in order of = seniority,=20 first to Justice Scalia, to respond in any way he wishes, and then = the=20 conversation can begin.

When we = talk about=20 the use of foreign court decisions in U.S. constitutional cases, = what body=20 of foreign law are we talking about? Are we limiting this to = foreign=20 constitutional law? What about cases involving international law, = such as=20 the interpretation of treaties, including treaties to which the = U.S. is=20 party?

When we talk about the = use of=20 foreign court decisions in U.S. law, do we mean them to be = authority or=20 persuasive, or rhetorical? If, for example, foreign court = decisions are=20 not understood to be precedent in U.S. constitutional cases, are = they=20 nevertheless able to strengthen the sense that U.S. assures a = common moral=20 and legal framework with the rest of the world? If this is so, is = that in=20 order to strengthen the legitimacy of a decision within the U.S., = or to=20 strengthen a decision's legitimacy in the rest of the world?=20

So, I turn to our distinguished = guests to,=20 as I say, respond to any or none of those points, and to make = whatever=20 comments they wish in conversation.

JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA: Well, most of those questions = should be=20 addressed to Justice Breyer because -- (laughter) -- because I do = not use=20 foreign law in the interpretation of the United States = Constitution. Now,=20 I will use it in the interpretation of a treaty. In fact, in a = recent case=20 I dissented from the Court, including most of my brethren who like = to use=20 foreign law, because this treaty had bee interpreted a certain way = by ever=20 foreign court of a country that was a signatory, and that way was=20 reasonable, although not necessarily the interpretation I would = have taken=20 as an original matter. But I thought that the object of a treaty = being to=20 come up with a text that is the same for all the countries, we = should=20 defer to the views of other signatories, much as we defer to the = views of=20 agencies -- that is to say if it's within ball park, if it's a = reasonable=20 interpretation, though not necessarily the very best. =

But apart from that, if you talk about using it = constitutional=20 law, you know, you talk about it's nice to know that, you know, = that we're=20 on the right track, that we have a same moral and legal framework = as the=20 rest of the world. But we don't have the same moral and legal = framework as=20 the rest of the world, and never have. If you told the framers of = the=20 Constitution that we're after is to, you know, do something that = will be=20 just like Europe, they would have been appalled. And if you read = the=20 Federalist Papers, it's full of, you know, statements that make = very clear=20 they didn't have a whole lot of respect for many of the rules in = European=20 countries. Madison, for example, says -- speaks contemptuously of = the=20 countries on continental Europe, quote, "who are afraid to let = their=20 people bear arms," closed quote.

You=20 mentioned the Miranda Rule. Well, I don't know the law in Russia. = You say=20 Russia has adopted the Miranda Rule. Has it adopted the = Exclusionary Rule=20 that goes with it? I mean, Miranda's a piece of cake, so long as = --=20 (laughter) -- so long as you don't say that any confession that = was=20 non-Mirandized is kept out of court. The Exclusionary Rule is=20 distinctively American. I don't -- I'm not -- I don't think there = is any=20 other country in the world that applies the Exclusionary Rule.=20

Now, should we say, "Oh my, = we're out of=20 step," so, you know -- or, take our abortion jurisprudence, we are = one of=20 only six countries in the world that allows abortion on demand at = any time=20 prior to viability. Should we change that because other countries = feel=20 differently? Or, maybe a more pertinent question: Why haven't we = changed=20 that, if indeed the court thinks we should use foreign law? Or do = we just=20 use foreign law selectively? When it agrees with what, you know, = what the=20 justice would like the case to say, you use the foreign law, and = when it=20 doesn't agree you don't use it. Thus, you know, we cited it in = Lawrence,=20 the case on homosexual sodomy, we cited foreign law -- not all = foreign=20 law, just the foreign law of countries that agreed with the = disposition of=20 the case. But we said not a whisper about foreign law in the = series of=20 abortion cases.

What's going on = here? Do=20 you want it to be authoritative? I doubt whether anybody would = say, "Yes,=20 we want to be governed by the views of foreigners." Well if you = don't want=20 it to be authoritative, then what is the criterion for citing it = not? That=20 it agrees with you? I don't know any other criterion to bring = forward.=20

So, that answers none of your = questions,=20 but -- (laughter) -- but that's what I wanted to say. (Laughter.)=20

MR. DORSEN: Thank you. Thank you = for your=20 informed response. Justice Breyer.

JUSTICE=20 STEPHEN BREYER: He's against it. (Laughter.) I think I got my law = clerk to=20 find some case where you at least came close to citing some = foreign law.=20 (Laughter.) I'm not the -- first, I'd like to thank you for being = here,=20 for inviting us here. And I think it is important what this = Constitutional=20 Law Society is doing.

It's a -- = I usually=20 think, and I think Justice Scalia does too, that in the United = States, and=20 this is perhaps unique to the United States, or almost, law is not = really=20 handed down from on high, even from the Supreme Court. Rather, it = emerges.=20 And we're part of it, the clerks are part of it, but only part. = And what=20 really survives every time is the result, I tend to think of a=20 conversation. I think that's the right word, conversation among = judges,=20 among professors, among law students, among members of the bar, = because=20 you need people to put things together, you need people to decide = cases,=20 you need people to tell you how it works out in practice. And out = of this=20 giant, messy, unbelievably messy conversation emerges law. And = that means=20 you have to have the conversation. And then I think we participate = it,=20 even at a general level, not just when we're deciding cases.=20

So, I think it's important that = we get out=20 occasionally. And we're not that well know. You may be -- = (laughter). Out=20 of the 10 times somebody asks me "Are you on the Supreme Court?" = nine of=20 them thought I was Justice Souter. (Laughter.) =

JUSTICE SCALIA: And he went along with it. =

JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah. (Laughter.) You want to get to = the point=20 here -- (laughter). There are so many ways, so many ways, in many = of which=20 Justice Scalia and I absolutely agree, so many ways in which = foreign law=20 influences law in the United States Supreme Court and the other = courts as=20 well. But the controversial one, I agree, and it's only one, and I = think=20 it's far from the most important -- I mean, if you want to see = what is=20 important, maybe we'll go into it later, I'll tell you about our = docket=20 last year, and you'll get a little flavor for the ways in which = foreign=20 law influences us today.

But let = me get to=20 the point, constitutional law, and what I think it illustrates is = so=20 beautifully, I was taken rather by surprise, frankly, at the = controversy=20 that this matter has generated, because I thought it so obvious. = You look=20 around to what's cited, what's cited is what the lawyers tend to = think is=20 useful. Does foreign law -- I'll give you the background.=20

I am at a seminar sort of like = this, where=20 they had a couple of professors, and they had a member of = Congress, and a=20 senator, and a couple of judges, and we're discussing = relationships=20 between the branches. And suddenly, the member of Congress, a very = nice=20 man, very intelligence man, started to say how terrible it was to = use=20 foreign law in decisions. I couldn't think -- what is he talking = about?=20 And then after a while it became clear, he was talking about this = issue.=20 And I said, "Well, I guess, Congressman, that's aimed at me." = (Laughter.)=20 And I said, "Well, let me tell you." What -- first, of course, = foreign law=20 doesn't bind us, constitutional law. Of course not. But these are = human=20 beings, more and more, called judges, who are human beings despite = concern=20 about that matter -- (laughter) -- human beings, called judges, = who have=20 problems that often, more and more, are similar to our own. = They're=20 dealing with this certain texts, texts that more and more protect = basic=20 human rights. Their societies more and more have become = democratic, and=20 they're faced not with things that should be obvious -- should we = stop=20 torture or whatever -- they're faced with some of the really = difficult=20 ones where there's a lot to be said on both sides. Hard to decide. =

I said, "If here I have a human = being=20 called a judge in a different country dealing with a similar = problem, why=20 don't I read what he says if it's similar enough? Maybe I'll learn = something." To which the congressman said, "Fine. Read it. Just = don't cite=20 it." (Laughter.) I thought, "All right."

Look, let me be a little bit more frank, that in some = of these=20 countries there are institutions, courts that are trying to make = their way=20 in societies that didn't used to be democratic, and they are = trying to=20 protect human rights, they are trying to protect democracy. = They're having=20 a document called a constitution, and they want to be independent = judges.=20 And for years people all over the world have cited the Supreme = Court, why=20 don't we cite them occasionally? They will then go to some of = their=20 legislators and others and say, "See, the Supreme Court of the = United=20 States cites us." That might give them a leg up, even if we just = say it's=20 an interesting example. So, you see, it shows we read their = opinions.=20 That's important. Then he says, "Well, write them a letter." = (Laughter.) I=20 thought I wasn't making much headway. He had a point. And the = point is the=20 point that Justice Scalia has made. How do we know we can keep = this under=20 control? How do we know we cite both side? How do we know we = looked for=20 everything? Well, I'd say that kind of a problem arises with any = sort of=20 citation. A judge can do what he's supposed to do, or not. And we = hope=20 they do what they're supposed to do. Would I try to refer to both = sides?=20 Of course I would.

And I'm not = being=20 defensive about this, so now let me defensive. I did in fact write = an=20 opinion which was a hard one for me because I didn't -- they're = actually=20 harder than they appear quite often. We have a very definite "this = is what=20 it is, this is what it is," but before you write "this is what it = is,"=20 there are moments of great uncertainty. And one of them that was = really,=20 maybe still is rather uncertain for me was an opinion I wrote in a = case=20 involving the Establishment Clause and school vouchers. And, of = course,=20 one of the things I had to face from my point of view, because I = thought=20 it would cause too much dissension in society, which was relevant = to my=20 legal argument.

So, of course I = had to=20 face the fact in France they subsidize a religious school and it = isn't the=20 end of the earth. And the same thing is true in Britain, other = countries.=20 So, should I be aware of that? Yes. Should I have -- feel that=20 conscientiously I might have to deal with that in my opinion? Yes. = Is it=20 something where I'm citing only things that favor me? Of course = not. I=20 mean, what I see in doing is this is what I call opening your = eyes,=20 opening your eyes to things that are going on elsewhere, use it = for what=20 it's worth.

So, when I see the = Bowman case=20 in the European Human Rights Court, and that Bowman case is a case = involving campaign contributions and freedom of expression, and I = see that=20 in our campaign finance case it's been cited in the briefs, I say, = "Wonderful. By the way, which side cited it?" Though each of them = thought=20 it favored them. Who did it favor? I don't know. But did I read = it? Yeah,=20 I looked at it. It wasn't that long. (Laughter.) Could I do that = all time?=20 I couldn't do it all the time. Should we be aware of this kind of = thing?=20 Absolutely. Do I think the real issue here is that? No. I think = that=20 they've come up in cases involving death penalty, gay rights, and=20 abortion. And, of course, that's fed the controversy. And then -- = and I=20 understand that. But I do think it's a separate subject, and I do = think on=20 this separate subject the answer should be of course, you can't = read=20 everything. But the lawyers are interested in this, the judges are = interested in it, that they'll refer to it, that they'll read it, = that=20 they'll use it as food for thought, I think is fine. =

MR. DORSEN: Justice Scalia?

JUSTICE SCALIA: I don't know what it means to express = confidence that judges will do what they ought to do, after having = read=20 the foreign law. My problem is I don't know what they ought to do. = What is=20 it that they ought to do? You have to ask yourselves, Why is it = that=20 foreign law would be relevant to what an American judge does when = he=20 interprets -- interprets, not writes -- I mean, the Founders used = a lot of=20 foreign law. If you read the Federalist Papers, it's full of = discussions=20 of the Swiss system, German system. It's full of that. It is very = useful=20 in devising a constitution. But why is it useful in interpreting = one?=20

Now, my theory of what I do when = I=20 interpret the American Constitution is I try to understand what it = meant,=20 what was understood by the society to mean when it was adopted. = And I=20 don't think it changes since then.

Now,=20 obviously if you have that philosophy -- which, by the way, used = to be=20 orthodoxy until about 60 years ago -- every judge would tell you = that's=20 what we do. If you have that philosophy, obviously foreign law is=20 irrelevant with one exception: Old English law, because phrases = like "due=20 process," the "right of confrontation" and things of that sort = were all=20 taken from English law. So the reality is I use foreign law more = than=20 anybody on the Court. But it's all old English law. =

All right, if you have that theory, you can = understand why=20 foreign law is irrelevant. So he will never convert me. I just = have a --=20 (laughter) --

MR. DORSEN: But = suppose old=20 English law tells you that the way this provision ought to be = interpreted=20 is in light of contemporary conditions, as the Commerce Clause may = have,=20 for example?

JUSTICE SCALIA: = You'll find=20 some English law that says that, and I'll use it -- =

JUSTICE BREYER: Blackstone. (Laughter.) =

JUSTICE SCALIA: Absolutely.

JUSTICE BREYER: Blackstone said follow Breyer. = (Laughter.)=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: But, listen, let = me --=20 (laughter) -- let me continue. That's my approach. Justice Breyer = doesn't=20 have my approach.

Okay, what is = another=20 approach to interpretation of the Constitution? Well, you know = maybe 60=20 years or so ago we adopted, first in the Eighth Amendment area = cruel and=20 unusual punishment the notion that the Constitution is not static. = It=20 doesn't mean what the people voted for when it was ratified. It = doesn't=20 mean that. Rather, it changes from era to era to comport with -- = and this=20 is a quote from our cases, "the evolving standards of decency that = mark=20 the progress of a maturing society." I detest that phrase, but = because --=20 (laughter) -- because I'm afraid that societies don't always = mature.=20 Sometimes they rot. What makes you think that, you know, human = progress is=20 one upwardly inclined plane every day and every way we get better = and=20 better? It seems to me that the purpose of the Bill of Rights was = to=20 prevent change, not to encourage it and have it written into a=20 Constitution.

Anyway, let's = assume you buy=20 into that. Okay? Still in all what you're looking for as a judge = using=20 that theory is what? The standards of decency of American society = -- not=20 the standards of decency of the world, not the standards of = decency of=20 other countries that don't have our background, that don't have = our=20 culture, that don't have our moral views. Of what conceivable = value as=20 authoritative would foreign law be? Now, you can cite foreign law = to show,=20 as Justice Breyer gave an example, to show that if the Court = adopts this=20 particular view, the sky will not fall. You know, if we got much = more=20 latitudinarian about our approach to the Establishment Clause, = things=20 won't be so bad. France, which is probably the strictest in = Europe, still=20 has a good deal of religious freedom and no establishment. Okay? = It's=20 useful for that.

But if you're = looking for=20 the evolving standards of decency of American society, why would = you look=20 to France? The only way in which it makes sense is if you have a = third=20 approach to the interpretation of the Constitution, and that is I = am not=20 looking for the evolving standards of decency of American society; = I'm=20 looking for what is the best answer in my mind as an intelligent = judge.=20 And for that purpose I look to other intelligent people, and I = talk=20 sometimes about conversations with judges and lawyers and law = students. Do=20 you think you're representative of American society? Do you not = realize=20 you are a small cream at the top, and that your views on = innumerable=20 things are not the views of America at large? And doesn't it seem = somewhat=20 arrogant for you to say, I can make up what the moral values of = America=20 should be on all sorts of issues, such as penology, the death = penalty,=20 abortion, whatever? That's the only context in which the use of = foreign=20 law makes sense, because what we're doing is not looking to = history, as I=20 do, not looking to the mores of contemporary American society, = which we=20 did for a while -- we used to see how many states had abolished, = for=20 example, in Koker -- how many states had abolished the death = penalty for=20 rape. All except one. Well, you could say we devolved. But we have = put=20 that behind us. And in our last Eighth Amendment case, eight = states -- no,=20 what was it? -- no -- 18 states out of the 38 states that have = capital=20 punishment refused to impose it upon the mentally deficient. The = other=20 states left it up to the jury as to how mentally deficient he was = and=20 whether that justified the crime, given how heinous it was. = Nonetheless,=20 we said even though only 18 out of 38, we have now reached a = change in our=20 moral perceptions. I suggest that change is based not upon the = theory that=20 you're looking for what the moral perceptions of America is, but = that=20 you're looking for moral perceptions of the justices. And I = frankly don't=20 want to undertake that responsibility. I don't want to do it with = foreign=20 law, and I don't want to do it without foreign law. I sleep very = well at=20 night, because I read old English cases. (Laughter.) And there's = my=20 answer.

JUSTICE BREYER: I think = that's=20 pretty good. I think that's really what's worrying people. And of = course I=20 think that underneath that my own views, it's really because I = think, and=20 I think many judges think, that your own moral views are not the = answer;=20 that people look other places for trying to find out in those few = cases=20 where such a thing is determinative how to find answers that = aren't -- I=20 mean, I'm tempted to say Bob Browker (ph), who is a good judge up = in=20 Massachusetts, used to say, "When I want to know what the common = man=20 thinks, I ask myself what I think, and I'm right every time." = (Laughter.)=20 That's not it. By the way, I want to keep a concession --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: He was kidding.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: No, no, I would = have=20 registered an important concession, because we did have a case in = a=20 federalism case in which the Court was -- they said that you = cannot have=20 under federal -- I dissented -- federalism principles a federal = law that=20 is going to tell state officials what to do directly. Remember = that?=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: Prince (sp).=20

JUSTICE BREYER: All right. So I = said that=20 you know that's odd -- then they'll have to build federal = bureaucracies,=20 and in Europe or in Switzerland, the one you mentioned --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: You cited = Switzerland,=20 right? You cited Switzerland?

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: That's right. And I said they think building the federal=20 bureaucracy is the opposite of the way to do it, that federalism = means=20 that the local officials have to be able to carry out federal = obligations.=20 Now, I want to just point out that you've said some things that I = take as=20 consistent with my being right to do that. (Laughter.)=20

That isn't the point. The point = is really=20 death penalty, and let me get the example that's hardest for me = and best=20 for you. And it is the most dubious, but I think it's right, and = I'll say=20 why did I do this.

First, = there's nothing=20 in Blackstone, Brackton (ph), or even King Arthur that says that = cruel and=20 unusual punishment, to determine that, you cannot look except to = England=20 or except to the United States. There's nothing in any of those = documents=20 that you've been able to find -- and I bet you've been looking --=20 (laughter) -- that says that. All right? So, there's nothing = barring me.=20

But let's take what's really = hard. I wrote=20 a dissent that you thought was totally wrong, and it was in from a = denial=20 of cert, and the question was this: Is it a cruel and unusual = punishment=20 to keep a person on death row for more than 20 years before = executing him?=20 Well, I said we should hear that case, and I wrote an opinion that = suggested a dissent, that I thought this was quite likely, it = could quite=20 possibly -- the answer to that question would be yes. But cruel = and=20 unusual punishment -- now, where do I look? Oh, I should look to = myself.=20 If I look to myself, I might be able to get an answer much faster. = I don't=20 look to myself. I mean, can I jump out of my own skin? No. No = human being=20 can. But let's see what's around. And of course I wrote this thing = -- not=20 too convincing -- but I found opinions in the Privy Council in = England=20 where they upset Jamaica --

JUSTICE=20 SCALIA: Reversing an earlier one of their own cases. =

JUSTICE BREYER: Right, correct.

JUSTICE SCALIA: So they don't even pay attention to = their own=20 opinions. (Laughter.)

JUSTICE = BREYER:=20 Well, I -- India -- India -- they've written a pretty good = opinion. There=20 was one in Canada. The U.N. had discussions on this. And they = weren't all=20 one way. And I cited things the other way too, anything I could = find. And=20 then I think I may have made what I call a tactical error in = citing a case=20 from Zimbabwe -- not the human rights capital of the world. = (Laughter.)=20 But it was at an earlier time -- Judge Gubei (ph) was a very good = judge.=20 So I had written this. And of course I looked -- I don't think = that's=20 controlling. But I'm thinking, Well, on this kind of an issue = you're=20 asking a human question, and the Americans are human -- and so is=20 everybody else. And I don't know, it doesn't determine it, but = it's an=20 effort to reach out beyond myself to see how other people have = done --=20 though it does not control.

Now, = Justice=20 Thomas then -- disagreeing -- wrote another little scrib, and he = said, You=20 see? Breyer is so desperate he can't find any American precedent = --=20 (laughter) -- so he has to look to Zimbabwe. Now, again, there is = a=20 certain point in that. So I'd have to say I'd rather have the=20 uncertainties and I'd rather have the judge understanding that = he's=20 looking but it's not controlling. And I'd rather have him use it = with=20 care, hoping that the judges won't lack the control to do so. Then = I would=20 like to have an absolute rule that says legally never. And the = fact that I=20 cannot find such an absolute rule -- legally never -- even in King = Arthur=20 -- gives me some cause for hope.

JUSTICE=20 SCALIA: But let's talk about the precise case here you brought up = --=20

JUSTICE BREYER: I said I brought = up one=20 that was hard for me.

JUSTICE = SCALIA: You=20 know, taking a long time for the death penalty -- we haven't = decided it=20 yet. It was just a denial of cert.

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: Right.

JUSTICE SCALIA: = One of the=20 difficulties of using foreign law is that you don't understand = what the=20 surrounding jurisprudence is so that you can say, you know, = "Russia=20 follows Miranda," but you don't know that Russia doesn't have an=20 Exclusionary rule.

And you say = every other=20 country of the world thinks that holding somebody for 12 years = under=20 sentence of death is cruel and unusual punishment, but you don't = know that=20 these other countries don't have habeas corpus systems which allow = repeated applications to state and federal court, so that the = reason it=20 takes 12 years is because he continues to file appeals that are=20 continuously rejected.

In = England, before=20 they abolished the death penalty -- and by the way, every public = opinion=20 poll in England suggests that the people would like to retain it, = but=20 maybe the judges and lawyers and law students feel differently = about it.=20 So it -- you know, it changes differently. But before they = abolished the=20 death penalty -- you know, when a death penalty was pronounced in = the=20 English courts they had a little skullcap. And when the jury comes = in --=20 and the judge, m'lord, would read the verdict he would -- if you = see him=20 reach for the skullcap and put on the skullcap he is about to = pronounce a=20 sentence of death. And that sentence would be carried out within = two=20 weeks. So I mean that's the reason 12 years seems extraordinary to = them.=20 But it's extraordinary because we've been so sensitive to the = problem of=20 an erroneous execution, so we allow repeated habeas corpus = applications. I=20 just don't think it's comparable. It's just not fair to compare = the two.=20

But most of all, what does the = opinion of=20 a wise Zimbabwe judge or a wise member of the House of Lords law=20 committee, what does that have to do with what Americans believe, = unless=20 you really think it's been given to YOU to make this moral = judgment, a=20 very difficult moral judgment? And so in making it for yourself = and for=20 the whole country, you consult whatever authorities you want. = Unless you=20 have that philosophy, I don't see how it's relevant at all.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Well, it's = relevant in the=20 sense that you have a person who's a judge, who has similar = training,=20 who's trying to, let's say, apply a similar document, something = like cruel=20 and unusual or -- there are different words, but they come to = roughly the=20 same thing -- who has a society that's somewhat structured like = ours. And=20 really, it isn't true that England is the moon, nor is India. I = mean,=20 there are human beings there just as there are here and there are=20 differences and similarities. And so one is not trying to figure = out the=20 meaning, really, of the words "cruel and unusual punishment," one = is=20 trying to deal with their application.

MORE And it isn't some arcane matter of contract law, = where a=20 different legal system might have given the same words totally = different=20 application. If they weren't dealing with words like "liberty" -- = and in=20 areas where we're not dealing with words like "liberty" and "cruel = and=20 unusual punishment," by the way, we look all the time to foreign = things.=20 Nobody objects. I mean, those are the contract cases, et cetera.=20

So here you're trying to get a = picture how=20 other people have dealt with it. And am I influenced by that? I am = at=20 least interested in reading it. And the fact that this has gone on = all=20 over the world and people have come to roughly similar = conclusions, in my=20 opinion, was the reason for thinking it at least is the kind of = issue that=20 maybe we ought to hear in our court, because I thought our people = in this=20 country are not that much different than people other places.=20

Now -- so all this stuff about = the=20 different legal traditions and everything -- in that particular = instance,=20 I don't think it had that much to do with it.

Now one problem is that all the time I admit I am = slightly more=20 interested or I have more confidence in looking to practical = facts,=20 looking to see how things will end up being implemented, and = ending up=20 with a degree of uncertainty. I mean, I probably am willing to = work with a=20 certain degree of uncertainty. And I think law is filled with = uncertainty=20 all over the place. And if I thought these things could be deduced = from=20 sort of fairly clear, logical legal rules and a history book, if I = thought=20 it were possible, I would agree with you that that's a system that = is more=20 likely to be able to keep judges from -- within controls.=20

But you see, it don't think it's = possible.=20 I don't think it's possible, and I think it's important to look on = the=20 ground to see how other people are reacting.

Well --

JUSTICE = SCALIA: Do you=20 have another question?

MR. = DORSEN: Yes.=20 (Laughter.)

JUSTICE SCALIA: = Yeah, we'll go=20 back --

MR. DORSEN: I want to = ask one=20 question to each justice, and I'll put them both on the table and = let them=20 fight over who goes first.

JUSTICE SCALIA:=20 Stephen and I do not fight.

MR. = DORSEN:=20 (Chuckles.) But only he -- only -- you could only -- =

JUSTICE SCALIA: We do not fight at all. =

MR. DORSEN: Let me put it this way to Justice Scalia. = Although=20 you have suggested your view about this, I'm still unclear about = what the=20 harm or risk is of considering foreign sources that may bear on = problems=20 that are common to both countries.

For=20 example, you mentioned the -- both of you have mentioned the death = penalty.

Why shouldn't U.S. = constitutional=20 decisions take account of shifting world standards on such things = as the=20 death penalty, on the execution of juveniles, on the execution of = the=20 mentally ill? Are we that far from the rest of the world in terms = of the=20 way life is lived?

That's the = question I'd=20 put to you.

The question, = Justice Breyer,=20 is a variant of something that Justice Scalia said in his opening=20 comments, and that is, is it fair to criticize you and other = members of=20 the court who do refer to foreign sources, even though do not = consider=20 them binding, would seem to suggest in general, or seem to refer = in=20 general to cases that support the positions that you're taking?=20

For example, in cases of the = death=20 penalty, in cases of abortion, in cases of other controversial = issues, I'm=20 not sure I see as many citations to East Asian courts, to South = American=20 courts, to Islamic courts. And is it a fair criticism that there's = a=20 certain selectivity that is substantively or result-oriented in = the way=20 foreign references are considered by you and those who agree with = you?=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Yes, it's a fair = criticism=20 because we're not going to refer to as many Asian courts at the = moment,=20 though we refer to India as an Asian court, because fewer come to = our=20 attention. And that's why it's important that these things not be = binding.=20 And if you're going to develop a jurisprudence of when to refer to = a non-=20 binding decision of a foreign court, I mean, it's -- I'll agree = that isn't=20 going to work. And so if you -- that's the trouble with the legal = mind; it=20 wants to make distinctions, and it always wants to make = jurisprudences out=20 of everything, and it gets so complicated you can't do.=20

But it's like legislative = history. That's=20 the basis. The criticism is the same.

JUSTICE SCALIA: It sure is. It sure is. =

JUSTICE BREYER: The criticism is you'll look over the = party,=20 the cocktail party -- remember Judge Leventhal said this about = legislative=20 history: Those who use legislative history, well it's like looking = at a=20 cocktail party, you look over the cocktail party to identify your = friends.=20 (Laughter.) And I say to that, well then you're not doing your = job. And=20 why would a -- that's what I said. I would refer to the cases = against me=20 that I come across as much as for me. And the fact that somebody's = come=20 out the other way in a foreign court doesn't make it any the less=20 interesting. Maybe it's more interesting. But this is not a major = thing.=20 It's not some kind of determinative thing in dozens of cases of=20 constitutional law; it's simply from time to time relevant. And if = it=20 becomes more than that, I don't know how it's going to work.=20

With the legislative history I'd = say, and=20 I'd say with this, you're a conscientious judge or you're not. And = if you=20 are going to apply it unfairly, why wouldn't you apply all kinds = of things=20 unfairly? There are plenty of opportunities to do that if you want = to do=20 it, but then if that's what you're going to do, go into some other = profession, because I don't see what the reward would be in a = profession=20 like ours, the law, which prizes people being straightforward, I = think,=20 being honest and doing the job properly. You're certainly not in = this for=20 -- (chuckles) -- for the pay. (Laughter.) You're in it for the = job.=20

MR. DORSEN: Justice Scalia?=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: That can't be = the only=20 explanation for not using other foreign sources, that we don't = know what=20 the other countries say. In my dissent in Lawrence, which was the=20 homosexual sodomy case, I observed that the court cited only = European law;=20 said: Why, every European country has said you cannot prohibit = homosexual=20 sodomy.

Of course, they said it = not by=20 some democratic ballot but by decree of the European Court of = Human=20 Rights, who was, you know, using the same theory that we lawyers = and=20 judges and law students -- we know what's moral and what isn't. It = had not=20 been done democratically. Nonetheless, it was true that throughout = all of=20 Europe, it was unlawful to prohibit homosexual sodomy. The court = did not=20 cite the rest of the world. It was easy to find out what the rest = of the=20 world thought about it. I cited in my dissent the rest of the = world was=20 equally divided.

JUSTICE BREYER: = But the=20 reason that they were citing it in Lawrence was because in Bowers = versus=20 Hardwick, the court had made the claim that homosexual sodomy is = almost=20 universally forbidden. And I think -- you read this more closely = than I,=20 and it's more fresh in your memory because you wrote in the case, = but I=20 thought that the reference to Lawrence was simply an effort today, = well,=20 the court in Bowers and Hardwick had not really been as right as = it=20 thought. So I --

JUSTICE SCALIA: = Well, I=20 understand, but for whatever reason, if we said universally, yes, = it's not=20 universally, but don't just talk about Europe, let's look at the = rest of=20 the world.

JUSTICE BREYER: Why = wouldn't a=20 --

JUSTICE SCALIA: I mean, it = lends itself=20 to manipulation. It lends itself. It invites manipulation. You = know, I=20 want to do this thing; I have to think of some reason for it. What = reason=20 -- you know, I want to come out this way. Now, I have to write = something=20 that -- you know, that sounds like a lawyer, okay? =

I have to cite something. (Laughter.) I can't -- I = can't cite a=20 prior American opinion because I'm overruling two centuries of = practice,=20 okay? (Laughter.) I can't -- I can't cite the laws of the American = people=20 because, in fact, only 18 of the 38 states that have capital = punishment=20 say that you cannot leave it to the jury whether the person is = mentally=20 deficient and whether that should count. So my goodness, what am I = going=20 to use?

JUSTICE BREYER: Let me = -- can I --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: I have a = decision by an=20 intelligent man in Zimbabwe -- (laughter) -- or -- (laughs) -- or = anywhere=20 else and you put it in there and you give the citation. By God, it = looks=20 lawyerly! (Laughter.) And it lends itself to manipulation. It just = does.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Can I go into a = different=20 topic? Because I -- it's slightly -- it's still international = application.=20 But I'm curious what my colleague thinks of this because I = actually do=20 believe, which I've said several times, that this is really a very = dramatic issue and so forth, but it isn't really the important = issue to=20 me. What's more important to me is the use of foreign law in = dozens and=20 dozens of much less glamorous cases.

I=20 mean, I'd like you to think about our docket last year, and this = is really=20 addressed directly to the audience or to law schools. I mean, in = -- on our=20 docket -- of course, we had the three terrorism cases, and they = had=20 implications for foreign law, but they were very special. Put them = to the=20 side. We had a case involving the Warsaw Convention where you = actually=20 wrote, I thought, a -- I shouldn't say anything about my = colleague's=20 opinions, plus or minus, because --

JUSTICE SCALIA: You often join my opinions, Stephen.=20 (Laughter.)

JUSTICE BREYER: = Yeah, I know.=20 Of course I do. But I mean, that was -- I was going to say a plus. = I was=20 going to say --

JUSTICE SCALIA: = But only=20 the good ones, right? (Laughs, laughter.)

JUSTICE BREYER: Yeah, right. They're all good.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: (Laughs.) = JUSTICE BREYER:=20 But the -- the point is that there's the Warsaw Convention, an = application=20 there where you have to really look to other courts, as you said.=20

There was a case, really = interesting,=20 involving the application of the antitrust laws, the American = antitrust=20 laws, where a plaintiff in Ecuador wants to sue a Swiss company -- = sorry,=20 a Dutch company for price fixing and increased vitamin prices in a = conspiracy that had involved some Americans, was mostly overseas, = and can=20 he come into an American court to recover for higher prices that = was=20 caused by the cartel in Europe? Very, very interesting and = difficult how=20 to harmonize.

A case in which a = company in=20 Los Angeles wants to get information from another company in = California,=20 and they say they want it because they want to present this = information,=20 which probably is boxes and boxes full, to the European cartel = authority=20 that, by the way, tells us we don't want it. All right?=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: That's right. = (Laughs.)=20

JUSTICE BREYER: And can they go = into court=20 in discovery and get it?

A case = in which=20 the Americans, truckers, do not want Mexican truckers to come = across the=20 border, despite NAFTA. And there are questions of environmental = impact=20 statements and how do they apply, given NAFTA. =

The case of -- what was her name? -- Mrs. -- you = know, the one=20 in Los Angeles who had been -- the Viennese woman who had five = Klimt=20 paintings.

MS. Altman.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Altman, Mrs. = Altman,=20 right. Mrs. Altman, who was trying to recover the Klimt paintings. =

JUSTICE SCALIA: Wonderful case.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: And there's a = very tricky=20 question of the Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act. =

The case of Sosa, the Alien Tort Statute, and how, or = to what=20 extent does that apply today -- initially against pirates. Well, = who is=20 today's pirate, and how does it fit into international law?=20

Now, look at those cases --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: One more. Add = the case on=20 -- a diversity case; whether you could get into federal court on = diversity=20 jurisdiction when the person on the other side is a corporation in = the=20 British Virgin Islands --

JUSTICE BREYER:=20 Oh, yes. Right. Right.

JUSTICE = SCALIA:=20 Whether that corporation is a citizen of the United Kingdom. It = depended=20 on U.K. law. I don't mind looking at that, absolutely.=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Right. = (Laughter.) Now,=20 look, we have briefs in these cases. I mean in the antitrust = cases, the=20 government of Germany, the European Union files a brief, the = cartel=20 authority, the anti-cartel authority. And these are not briefs = saying "our=20 position is," these were briefs that really went into this issue = and that=20 were very helpful.

So what I'm = saying is=20 that this world that we live in is a world where I think it's out = of date=20 for people to teach about foreign law in a course called "foreign = law." I=20 think it's in date to teach in contract law or in tort law, = because those=20 are the cases we're getting. And that reflects the truth about the = world,=20 which is that of course business is international; of course law = is more=20 and more international; and of course, human rights, too, are more = and=20 more international. But that last subject is only a part of our = agenda. So=20 what are you learning about that? And how do we deal with that? = Because=20 the same problems arise there as what we've been -- I can't be = universal.=20 Don't be ridiculous. Sometimes I think I know nothing. Now, that's = false=20 modesty. But the -- (laughter) -- but the fact is you cannot = universally=20 know everything, and indeed, the lawyers have to tell you, and = they have=20 to find out where to look. What is a prescription? Where do you = look? Is=20 that statute of limitations? I hardly know. Or do you look at a = drug store=20 or do you look at a law library? I mean, all these things have to = be=20 taught, we have to adjust them, they have to come into our law.=20

All right? So I'm looking for = answers=20 there; I'm not taking a particular point of view. =

MR. DORSEN: I'd like to ask one last question that = you are, of=20 course, free to evade or avoid or respond to -- =

JUSTICE SCALIA: I didn't answer your previous one. I = forgot=20 entirely what it was. (Laughter.)

MR.=20 DORSEN: I put that behind us --

JUSTICE=20 SCALIA: All right. (Laughter.)

MR. DORSEN:=20 -- in the spirit of friendship.

The=20 question I have is -- and it -- the question I have in my own mind = is=20 whether this question is a naive question. And that is, rather = than=20 looking at foreign courts to say Greece decided our way, the = United=20 Kingdom decided our way, X country decided a different way, = another=20 country has a different view, rather than thinking about these = courts and=20 cases in terms of the results to think about them in terms of the=20 persuasiveness of the opinions, just as a New York court might = look at a=20 Montana decision and be influenced not by the result of the = Montana court=20 or the Wyoming court or the Illinois court but by the cogency of = the=20 arguments, by the depth of the reasoning, by the logic. And if our = courts=20 look at another country's courts and they're able to find opinions = that=20 are persuasive on the merits, why couldn't that be a way of = informing our=20 judges in a positive way?

JUSTICE SCALIA:=20 Well, you're begging the question. I mean, your question assumes = that it=20 is up to the judge to find THE correct answer. And I deny that. I = think it=20 is up to the judge to say what the Constitution provided, even if = what it=20 provided is not the best answer, even if you think it should be = amended.=20 If that's what it says, that's what it says.

But even if you disagree with me, and if you think, = well, no,=20 that shouldn't be the test; the Constitution should keep up to = date -- but=20 it should keep up to date with the views of the American people. = And on=20 these constitutional questions, you're not going to come up with a = right=20 or wrong answer; most of them involve moral sentiments. You can = have=20 arguments on one side and on the other, but what you have to ask = yourself=20 is what does American society think? And the best way, the only = way to=20 determine that is certainly not to ask a very thin segment of = American=20 society -- judges, lawyers and law students -- what they think but = rather=20 to look at the legislation that exists in states, democratically = adopted=20 by the American people.

That's = why it --=20 I'm sure that intelligent men and women abroad can make very = intelligent=20 arguments, but that's not the issue, because it should not be up = to me to=20 make those moral determinations.

MR.=20 DORSEN: Do you want to comment on that?

JUSTICE BREYER: Well, it's not only that. I mean, = look at Mrs.=20 Bowman. Mrs. Bowman was a -- I may not remember this exactly = rightly, but=20 Mrs. Bowman, I think, was a champion of right to life. She's in = Britain,=20 and she wanted to, I think, contribute a small amount of money -- = maybe it=20 was five pounds, maybe it was 50 pounds -- to have some literature = printed=20 up a few days before the election that would have said if you are = right to=20 life, don't vote for these people. And the British law said people = cannot=20 go out and write publicity except within a very narrow campaign = limit for=20 the candidate, which this has exceeded because she wasn't giving = the money=20 to a candidate or whatever, within, say, 60 days of the election = or 40=20 days or 10 days or whatever the time limit was. =

And now the European Court of Justice -- sorry, human = rights=20 court gets Mrs. Bowman's claim that that limit on her campaign = expenditure=20 that few days before the election violated the freedom of = expression=20 that's guaranteed in the European Convention of Human Rights. Does = that=20 sound familiar, that issue? And what the lower court had said or = somebody=20 in Britain had said -- or maybe they were -- they would face this=20 argument: my goodness, you mean the -- do you mean that Mr. = Murdoch and=20 his newspapers can say all he wants about this, but Mrs. Bowman = can't say=20 a word? Because that was written into their opinion. Does that = sound=20 familiar, those kinds of questions?

Now=20 those are not great moral questions, or I'm just looking to their=20 sentiment, but would I be reasonable to say I'm curious how they = dealt=20 with it? I'm not bound by it. I mean, they didn't actually have = that much=20 written about it, but I'm curious. I'm curious. Now do you want to = say I=20 shouldn't make any reference to it at all?

JUSTICE SCALIA: I -- lookit, I'm not preventing you = from=20 reading these cases.

JUSTICE = BREYER: Well,=20 that's exactly -- (laughter) --

JUSTICE=20 SCALIA: I mean, just indulge your curiosity! (Laughter.) Just --=20

JUSTICE BREYER: Right -- = (laughs) --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: Just don't put = it in your=20 opinions! (Laughter, laughs.)

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: (Laughs.) That's where we were. (Laughs.) =

MR. DORSEN: What I'd like now to do is turn to the -- = a=20 question period. The justices have kindly agreed to answer = questions.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: To take -- TAKE = --=20 questions. (Laughter, applause.)

MR.=20 DORSEN: I stand corrected, but I know you won't be able to = restrain=20 yourself. (Laughter.)

The -- a = professor=20 at this law school, Ken Anderson, will call on people who have = questions.=20 And speaking seriously, as Justice Scalia did say quite properly, = the=20 justices have agreed to listen, to hear the questions, but not = necessarily=20 put them in their opinions.

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: Or answer them. (Laughter, laughs.)

KENNETH ANDERSON (professor, American University = Washington=20 College of Law): Thank you. The way that we will do this is I'll = ask those=20 who are asking questions one at a time to come to either one of = the two=20 mikes, depending on which side of the room that you're on. And we = will=20 start actually with Professor Rosenfeld, if you'd like to use the = mike=20 right here. I will also introduce a couple of questions which have = come=20 from the rooms where the video monitors are as well, and I have = selected a=20 couple of questions out of those.

Q Thank=20 you very much.

I would like to, = if I may,=20 ask actually one question of -- is this a -- can I be heard with = this?=20 Okay.

MR. ANDERSON: I think, = Michel, you=20 may have to be next to that microphone in order for it to go = through the=20 C-SPAN feed.

Q Okay. I'd like to = ask one=20 question to each justice, which of course they're free not to = answer, or=20 to ignore completely.

And let me = put it=20 this way. Listening to Justice Scalia, I have a sense that except = for the=20 question of the sentiment of the American people, his position has = very=20 little to do one way or another with foreign materials. Basically, = as an=20 originalist, Justice Scalia wants to know what the Constitution = meant in=20 -- when it was adopted, and anything other than that is really not = --=20 should not be relevant.

Therefore, I=20 assume if we had a -- historians found reliable and convincing -- = in a=20 convincing way that the framers had the intention of incorporating = or=20 being inspired greatly by French law or Dutch law of the 17th or = 18th=20 century, Justice Scalia would certainly look to that foreign = source, as an=20 originalist.

The same thing in = terms of=20 the moral issues, in the broad sense, except those that deal with=20 consulting the sentiment of the American people. =

It seems to me that there are liberals who have = certain moral=20 views, and there are others who have different moral views, and = Justice=20 Scalia rejects, as far as I can tell, the, let's say, liberal view = on X, Y=20 or Z; that's not proper constitutional -- as not a proper = constitutional=20 matter. Whether it's American or foreign, it doesn't matter.=20

So my question to Justice Scalia = is this.=20 You've said that 60 years ago originalism was basically not = abandoned, but=20 at least is less important in decisions today. And I think every = justice=20 has to deal with the issue of precedent. And in the Supreme Court, = precedent is not binding, in the sense that your court can = overrule its=20 own precedents. So the question is -- let me ask the following=20 hypothetical. (Laughter.) Suppose your court had never had a -- I = mean, a=20 two- -- okay, just real quickly --

MR.=20 ANDERSON: Yeah, please.

Q -- = never had any=20 jurisprudence on abortion, and all of the abortion jurisprudence,=20 including your own opinions, were by Canadian judges. Would there = be any=20 interest or would there be any point in reading that, in looking = at it, as=20 well reasoned, not well reasoned, helpful or not helpful in = developing=20 doctrine?

And if I may very = quickly ask=20 Justice Breyer a question, the question to Justice Breyer: You've=20 mentioned the example of the French allowing the state to = subsidize=20 religious schools, and the -- and I know you are very familiar = with the=20 situation in France. But another justice or another judge may not = be as=20 familiar with the French situation as you are. It's in a totally = different=20 context. In other words, in France, there is much less religiosity = than in=20 the United States. The French people seem to be much less = religious.=20 French institutions are often very anti-religious. And therefore, = one=20 would argue that there is not a same risk of perception of the = government=20 fostering religion in France than there would be in the United = States.=20

The general question is, isn't = there a=20 problem in using the foreign materials that there is no way that a = human=20 being who is a judge in one country can have sufficient background = information about another country to incorporate or to cite the=20 jurisprudence of that other country? Thank you. =

JUSTICE SCALIA: Okay. You remember my question? = (Laughter.)=20

Q (Off mike.) (Laughter.)=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: I wouldn't look = to=20 Canadian law. On the question of abortion, as an originalist, I = would look=20 at the text of the Constitution, which says nothing about the = subject=20 either way. You know, both sides would like me to resolve it=20 constitutionally. I look at the text; it says nothing about it. = And I look=20 at 200 years of history; nobody ever thought it said anything = about it.=20 That's the end of the question for me. What good would reading = Canadian=20 opinions do, unless it was my job to be the moral arbiter, which I = don't=20 regard it as?

I regard the = Constitution as=20 having set a floor to American society. That floor says nothing = about=20 abortion. It's not the job of the Constitution to change things by = judicial decree; change is brought about by democracy. Abortion = has been=20 prohibited. You want to change that? American society think that's = a=20 terrible result? Fine. Persuade each other about that, pass a law = and=20 prohibit -- eliminate the laws against abortion. =

I have no problem with change. It's just that I do = not regard=20 the Constitution as being the instrument of change by letting = judges read=20 Canadian cases and say, "Yeah, it would be a good idea not to have = any=20 restrictions on abortion." That's not the way we do things in a = democracy.=20 Persuade your fellow citizens and repeal the laws. Why should the = Supreme=20 Court decide that question?

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: As to -- I think about what my job is every day. My job = each day=20 is I read and I write. I'm at the word processor. I told my son = when he=20 was in school, if you do your homework well, you'll get a job = where you=20 can do homework the rest of your life. (Laughter.) =

What am I reading? Contrary to, perhaps, someone's = impression,=20 I am not out there reading the arcane edicts of Covair (ph). I am = reading=20 briefs. Briefs all the time explain law to me that I don't know. = One of=20 the hardest laws I've ever had to have explained was the property = law in=20 Louisiana, which was relevant to the interpretation of an ERISA = provision.=20 And it never got right until I read a brief by the California = Property Bar=20 Section or something, and they explained it beautifully.=20

So you never know where you'll = get your=20 explanation. And obviously, we're going to have to have more and = more=20 explanation of foreign law too, because it's going to be in there = in those=20 discovery cases, and it is in there in the antitrust cases, and it = is in=20 there with the EPA and NAFTA and the interaction, and we're going = to have=20 to know it.

And the people who = are going=20 to explain that to us are going to be lawyers and they're going to = have to=20 give us a clue as to what is important and what isn't. So we're = going to=20 have to know it. And this -- quite honestly I've said 50 times -- = is but=20 the sort of glamorous icing on the cake. If there are important = and=20 interesting matters, they'll be pointed out to us. All right?=20

Now, my second point about my = job is this:=20 Of course no judge thinks he's there to advance a political point = of view,=20 and no judge thinks that he or she is there to advance an = ideological=20 point of view. And if I catch myself saying, "I'm doing this = because I=20 think it's morally good," then I think to myself, that's not my = job. That=20 doesn't mean I'm there to foment evil -- (laughter) -- but it does = mean --=20 (laughs) -- what I'm there for is in fact to follow the law.=20

I believe that all of us -- = Justice=20 Scalia, Justice O'Connor, Justice Thomas, the Chief, everyone -- = has in a=20 sense quite a similar framework that fits most legal cases. All of = us look=20 to texts, all of us are interested in history, all of us are = interested in=20 tradition, all of us are interested in precedent, all of us, in = fact, want=20 to understand the value or purpose that underlie the law, and all = of us=20 are interested in how our decision -- how it will turn out in = terms of the=20 consequences viewed through the prism of that value or purpose. = But there=20 are differences, I think, in the weights that different judges = tend over=20 time to give those elements in different cases. =

So that's why I think it's important not to overstate = the=20 differences. There are differences, but as law students or = professors or=20 judges or practitioners, the similarities are far more important, = and I've=20 seen that in my life, in whatever -- are far more important than = the=20 differences.

MR. ANDERSON: Let = me take a=20 couple of hands of anybody who would like to -- =

Q I have a question.

MR.=20 ANDERSON: Go ahead, please. If you'd come to the microphone and = speak=20 into, please, both microphones in order that it can be heard both = in this=20 room and also in the television feed.

And=20 Jamin Raskin, next.

Q Mine will = be very=20 brief. I have -- had an answer before I came and I think I still = have it.=20 The Bicentennial Commission, you remember, did millions of these=20 constitutions and sent them all over the world. =

JUSTICE SCALIA: Could you speak a little more slowly. = It's hard=20 to hear because of the microphones.

Q=20 Okay, my question is: Article VI of the Constitution of the United = States=20 says that the Constitution and the laws made under it shall be the = supreme=20 law of the land and that judges and courts in every state will = follow the=20 Constitution.

When you took your = oath,=20 when I took my oath, and when President Bush takes his oath next = week, the=20 oath is not to defend the United States, it's to defend the = Constitution=20 and protect the Constitution.

What is the=20 answer to the -- to my question, because the Constitution doesn't = say and=20 the oath doesn't say that we protect and defend the Constitution = as=20 interpreted by a judge in Zimbabwe or Jamaica or India. I'm very = curious=20 as to how that's justified. Thank you.

JUSTICE BREYER: Well, of course, no one thinks that = you do. I=20 guess that's my -- to me. But, I mean, I've tried to explain over = the last=20 hour or so that of course I think I'm interpreting the = Constitution of the=20 United States. But just as, for example, if in fact in some = foreign=20 country it had turned out that when they -- I mean, that's why I = gave the=20 federal. If, in fact, it showed that a particular legal decision, = a=20 particular interpretation of a similar word, had led to total = suppression=20 of all speech, should I not take that into account in interpreting = the=20 word "freedom of speech" or applying it in the United States?=20

Do you think things outside the = United=20 States cannot be relevant to an understanding of how to apply the = American=20 Constitution? That's what's at issue. What is at issue is the = extent to=20 which you might learn from other places facts that would help you = apply=20 the Constitution of the United States. And in today's world, as = I've said,=20 where experiences are becoming more and more similar, I think that = there=20 is often -- not a lot, not always -- but in a finite number of = instances=20 there is something to learn about how to interpret this document, = this=20 document -- which I don't happen to have in my pocket, but I = thought I=20 might, which would be quite dramatic. (Laughs; laughter.) That's = all=20 right. But that's the document, I'm interpreting that document. = And to=20 think that one might learn from other countries in how best to = apply this=20 American Constitution is something I think -- I've been reading = about the=20 Founding Fathers, and I think Franklin and Hamilton and Jefferson = and=20 Madison and maybe even George Washington all would have thought = that we,=20 on occasion at least, can learn something about our country and = our law=20 and our document from what happens elsewhere.

MR. ANDERSON: And I'm going to hold it at these three = questions.

I'm sorry, go ahead.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: Yeah, can I = respond to=20 that, please?

MR. ANDERSON: = Please.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: I doubt it. = (Laughter.)=20 You know, it's a Constitution that contains phrases of great = generality=20 such as due process of law.

Now = if you're=20 following an originalist approach, you ask, what did the framers = believe=20 constituted due process of law? And if you find something there = and I=20 don't like it, it's too bad; I am chained. I -- because of my = theory of=20 the Constitution, that's what due process was and that's what it = is today,=20 unless you amend it. Whereas if you just say due process of law is = an=20 invitation for intelligent judges and lawyers and law students to = imagine=20 what they consider to be due process and consult foreign judges, = then,=20 indeed, you do not know what you're saying when you swear to = uphold and=20 defend the Constitution of the United States. It morphs. I mean, = under our=20 current Constitution, changes.

MR.=20 ANDERSON: Professor Raskin?

Q = Justice=20 Scalia, I wonder how serious we are about not subjecting U.S. = citizens to=20 the constitutional reasoning of foreign courts, and I think this = is going=20 to become a big issue with Internet defamation lawsuits, which are = all the=20 rage right now and have very troubling implications for the First=20 Amendment. Some Americans are being parodied by U.S. newspapers or = magazines, then they rush abroad to a foreign court, which rules = that=20 they've been libeled, something that could never take place under = our=20 First Amendment jurisprudence of The New York Times versus = Sullivan,=20 Hustler versus Falwell. Now there's nothing you can do to stop = foreign=20 courts from claiming jurisdiction over Americans just because = their=20 written material is online, but should American courts cooperate = with=20 these illiberal policies by enforcing foreign judgments against = Americans=20 for speech that would definitely be protected here in the U.S.?=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: That's a very = interesting=20 question. (Laughter.) What's the answer? (Laugher.) =

Q The answer is yes. I'll send you one of my law = students as a=20 clerk. (Laughter.)

JUSTICE = SCALIA: It=20 really is a great problem. I have -- we haven't been confronted = with a=20 case involving it yet, but when the case comes up it will -- will = indeed=20 -- it'll be --

JUSTICE BREYER: = We'll give=20 it our most serious consideration. (Laughter.) =

JUSTICE SCALIA: Listen, the one thing you know for = sure is that=20 we'll get it right. (Laughter.)

MR.=20 ANDERSON: Professor Schwartz?

Q = I'm a=20 little embarrassed because my comments really are not in the form = of a=20 question because I think that the heart of the issue is really the = function of the judge. Justice Scalia I think is absolutely right. = He said=20 it many times. The question is, what is the role of the judge? And = there=20 is a very sharp disagreement here.

I would=20 suggest, however, that contrary to Justice Scalia's view, the = original=20 intent theory is the novel one. The Weems case, which has notions = of=20 evolving standards, goes back to 1908. It was pretty much = reaffirmed in=20 the '30s. And the original intent notion really developed in the = '70s. The=20 fact is, I don't think you'll find much about original intent = until you go=20 back to Dred Scott, which is a decision based on original intent, = as is,=20 to a large extent, the Bradwell case, which says that Illinois can = exclude=20 women from the bar.

I think,=20 unfortunately, that response -- by the way, Alexander Hamilton = said we=20 should pay attention to the judgments of other nations. And when = Madison=20 was preparing for the Constitutional Convention, he read = everything he=20 could get his hands on about other governments. That doesn't mean = that=20 when we read this stuff, we have to buy it, but I think it means = that we=20 should try to learn. But that all depends on the function of the = judge.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: Let me answer = that=20 question. (Laughter.) Alexander Hamilton, sir, was writing the=20 Constitution, not interpreting one.

JUSTICE BREYER: That's right. That's right.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: And in writing = one, of=20 course you consult foreign sources, see how it's worked, see what = they've=20 done, use their examples and so forth. But that has nothing to do = with=20 interpreting it.

As far as = evolving=20 standards of decency, that does not come from 1908. It comes from = a case=20 in the '50s involving --

JUSTICE = BREYER:=20 Trop.

JUSTICE SCALIA: Yes. Trop = versus=20 Dulles. And if you think -- if you -- all you have to do is to = read the=20 commentaries of Joseph Story to understand what the original=20 interpretation of the Constitution was. It is unchanging. It is a = rock to=20 which the polity is anchored. I mean, the notion that -- and as = for Dred=20 Scott, Dred Scott was the first originalist case? You know what = Dred Scott=20 was? Dred Scott was the first case to use the horrid term = "substantive due=20 process," which has been the -- you know, the source of all of the = inventiveness of the Supreme Court in developing an evolving = standard of=20 decency. So that's the answer to that question. (Laughter.)=20

JUSTICE BREYER: But I would like = to add=20 something, because I don't agree with you, Herman, that it's = really a=20 difference over the role of the judge. I think that it would be = surprising=20 if you could really get a psychoanalyst, that you would discover = maybe we=20 agree much more on the role of the judge than people think, and = maybe=20 there are a lot of other people who don't agree with me in this = room.=20

But --

JUSTICE SCALIA: We're talking about a narrow category = of cases,=20 Stephen, and I agree with --

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: Yeah. Now -- that's right. No, but it isn't just that.=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: Yeah. =

JUSTICE BREYER: I think there is a difference, and = it's -- see=20 what you think. I mean, this is -- all want to -- see this = difference. I=20 think in a lot of areas of the law, the following shows up. It's = not about=20 the role of the judge. The judge is to apply the law. But there is = a=20 concern that if -- and this is just an example of that -- that if = there=20 are too few rules and too few clear approaches as to what goes and = what=20 doesn't go, what you will discover is judges -- and remember, a = judge is a=20 person who's been entrusted in a democratic society with power, = although=20 that judge is not elected.

So if = in fact=20 you give judges too many open-ended procedures, rules and = practices, what=20 you will discover is that a man, a woman who suddenly has this = power, for=20 better or for worse, maybe unconsciously, maybe not even wanting = to, will=20 substitute her judgment, his judgment, for the judgment of the=20 legislature. And that's wrong in a democracy.

And everyone recognizes that's a problem, but there = is a=20 divergence as to how much we can do about it. And some say that = the price=20 of trying to cabin that with very strict procedures, legal rules = and=20 processes is not worth the candle. You can control, but the law = will=20 become too divorced from life.

And there=20 are those who say that isn't the greater danger, the greater = danger is the=20 danger of the substitution of the unelected judge as a = decision-maker for=20 the elected parliamentarian congress -- member of Congress. And I = think=20 there is no way, actually, to resolve that. I think that both = groups of=20 people are appealing to consequences in support of a way of = approaching=20 the Constitution that they believe, on balance, will achieve = objectives=20 that everyone wants. No one wants to divorce the law from life, = and nobody=20 wants undemocratic judges substituting their view for that of the=20 legislature. And that's why this is a very good discussion. It's a = discussion because it promotes discussion. And I think only by -- = as I've=20 said, by promoting that and getting people to debate this kind of = question=20 will you get the system to move towards possibly better answers.=20

MR. ANDERSON: Professor Niles.=20

Q I apologize in advance for = asking two=20 questions.

MR. DORSEN: Please, = please=20 limit yourself to one.

Q I will. = But you=20 don't get this chance every day.

MR.=20 DORSEN: Well, I want to make sure --

MR. :=20 -- to get a chance to ask one. (Laughter.)

Q I know. Very quick. Justice Breyer, to you first. = The=20 question that Justice Scalia asked about -- which I thought was a = very=20 good question, which I don't -- I'm not really sure if I heard an = answer=20 to, which is great, go ahead, read all these things as much as you = want,=20 but why do you have to put them in your opinions. I'd be = interested to=20 hear a response to that, because I think all of your arguments are = very=20 strong in terms of the usefulness of reading this material, but = they don't=20 necessarily translate -- but -- maybe there was an answer.=20

But slightly longer, to Justice = Scalia,=20 why does English law, British law, get special treatment in your = analysis=20 of the way we should treat foreign law? And I ask that because I = guess=20 there are a couple of reasons why it would; our history and = connection as=20 former British colonies as a country might justify it. But we = fought a war=20 for seven years to extricate ourself from that government for = various=20 reasons, some of them very substantive, that would suggest not = accepting=20 sort of British laws as the image of what we should do. I guess = that maybe=20 a second reason would be well, we have more of a social and = cultural=20 history connection with England, which we certainly do, but we = also have a=20 social and cultural history to about every other country in the = world,=20 given the nature of our immigration status.

So, for example, at a question like how we should = treat state=20 governments in terms of lawsuits against them, seeking some sort = of civil=20 liability on the part of the governmental entity, why should we = look to=20 the way the British have thought about sovereign immunity as a = tool for=20 understanding the way we should think about it, given the = differences and=20 the disconnection that we have over 200 years and a whole = seven-year war=20 between ourselves and the British?

So --=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: I wouldn't -- I = don't use=20 British law for everything. I use British law for those elements = of the=20 Constitution that were taken from Britain. The phrase "the right = to be=20 confronted with witnesses against him" -- what did confrontation = consist=20 of in England? It had a meaning to the American colonists, all of = whom=20 were intimately familiar with my friend Blackstone. And what they=20 understood when they ratified this Constitution was that they were = affirming the rights of Englishmen. So to know what the = Constitution meant=20 at the time, you have to know what English law was at the time. = And that=20 isn't so for every provision of the Constitution. =

The one you mentioned -- what does sovereignty = consist of? --=20 that is probably one on which I would consult English law, because = it was=20 understood when the Constitution was framed that the states = remained, at=20 that time in 1789, separate sovereigns. Well, what were the = prerogatives=20 of a sovereign, as understood by the framers of the Constitution? = The same=20 as was understood by their English forebears.

So that's why I would use English law -- not at all = because I=20 think we are still very much aligned legally, socially, = philosophically=20 with England. That's not the reason.

JUSTICE BREYER: I don't normally put these things in. = Sometimes=20 I do if I think they have some significance in my thinking and it = will be=20 useful to people. I think an opinion should be as transparent as = possible.=20 And for reasons of transparency, if I thought it was helpful I = might put=20 it in. And also I probably think that -- but these are not major = things in=20 the opinion. But occasionally it can help (to ?) show some of the = other=20 countries, as I said. But I think transparency is important in an = opinion.=20

MR. ANDERSON: Last question that = we're=20 going to take is actually from outside this room. There are many = people=20 who are actually in other rooms in the building, and I've taken = one=20 question out of the ones that have been passed up here. So this = will be=20 the last question. And it is that Justice Scalia has raised the = concern,=20 and has really put centrally, the concern that citing foreign law = is an=20 invitation to judicial elites to impose their own moral and social = views.=20

MORE And yet neither Justice = Scalia nor=20 Justice Breyer has directly addressed a deeper concern about these = materials; namely, that's it's not about elite imposition as such, = but=20 instead that these legal materials have no democratic provenance, = they=20 have no democratic connection to this legal system, to this = constitutional=20 system, and thus lack democratic accountability as legal = materials.=20

Let me put that out as a = question, I=20 guess.

(Pause.) (Laughter.)=20

JUSTICE SCALIA: They're your = materials;=20 you defend them. (Laughter.)

JUSTICE=20 BREYER: I mean, it's an interesting point. You're always referring = to=20 materials, even if it's Blackstone or whoever. The material = doesn't have=20 to have a democratic base. You reason all the time. You read law=20 professors. They're not elected. (Laughter.) I mean, to try to = understand,=20 to try to understand, it's not necessary that the origin of the = material=20 be democratic. That's normal, and of course these, where they're = relevant,=20 it's an effort to understand.

But there is=20 a deeper meaning to that question which is very interesting to me, = very=20 interesting. When people think about the foreign court = institutions, it's=20 sometimes very hard for -- say for Europeans, to understand why = Americans=20 sometimes react negatively, so negatively to the thought that some = foreign=20 judges would be able to tell Americans what to do. They find that = hard to=20 understand, because they're judges, after all. =

I've even been saying -- I haven't said about telling = us what=20 to do, but I have pointed out that they're judges. But you can = understand=20 it; there is something deep in this reaction, and not entirely = bad. And it=20 comes back to our being a democracy, as the questioner said.=20

One of the most interesting = phrases that I=20 read -- to me -- in Madison is, if I can remember it -- and as I = bring up=20 at this moment, I usually forget the quotation -- but he said the = American=20 Constitution is a document of power granted by liberty, not a = document of=20 liberty granted by power. And what he's driving at is even if we = end up at=20 the same place as many European countries, the whole theory of our = country=20 is that power originates in the people and whatever power = government has=20 is delegated by those people; while in many foreign countries, = even if=20 they end up at the same place, it has been liberty that has = initially been=20 granted by a central power, whether it started out as a king or = even a=20 democratic government.

That = changes the=20 cast of mind, and it helps to explain why it's so deep in America = to say,=20 "But who are those people? We had no say. We had no say in them, = in their=20 position." And so every time I hear a criticism of my own = position, which=20 is that we should pay attention to what they say, I stop myself = from=20 complaining -- too much -- by thinking at bottom there is = something good=20 reflected here. At bottom, there is reflected a very strong = American=20 belief that all power has to flow from the people and we have to = maintain=20 a check. That's a good thing.

But, of=20 course, I don't think it stops me from looking at the foreign = opinions --=20 (laughter) -- and even citing them. (Applause.) =

MR. DORSEN: Justice Scalia.

JUSTICE SCALIA: I think it's fine to conclude on = something that=20 we undoubtedly agree upon. (Laughter.)

MR.=20 DORSEN: Well, that implies that you're not interested -- perhaps = you are=20 -- making a final statement of any kind?

JUSTICE BREYER: No, I made it.

JUSTICE SCALIA: No.

(Laughter.)=20

MR. DORSEN: Well, the final word = is going=20 to be with Dean Grossman. But before he comes up, I think we all = should=20 thank our two justices. (Applause.)

DEAN=20 GROSSMAN: I would like to thank Justices Scalia and Breyer for = this=20 exciting conversation which has given us unique insight into their = views=20 and intellectual power, and their engaging sense of humor. I want = to=20 extend on behalf of our community a permanent invitation to come = here into=20 our living room and share your views as you are driving down = Massachusetts=20 Avenue to the Court.

I hope that = those who=20 came here in search of safe answers and certainty are sorely = disappointed,=20 and instead you have gotten more confused than before. Because = this=20 conversation, in the best tradition of high, intellectual debate,=20 hopefully has increased the appetite to learn more and develop = your own=20 views. The key thing is in the questions, not in the answers. But = we will=20 do that with much more knowledge than before as we have seen this = historic=20 conversation.

I=92m sure also = that we=92re not=20 going to create any problems for the judges if we give a small = present to=20 each of them for their participation here.

JUSTICE SCALIA: (Inaudible=85laughter)

DEAN = GROSSMAN: It=92s=20 under=85

JUSTICE SCALIA: = Worthless and=20 useless; worthless and useless. (laughter)

DEAN GROSSMAN: We have wrapped it up so you cannot = see how=20 useless it is, but it=92s less than two dollars and thirty-five = cents=20 (laughter). And also, I would like to recognize Professor Norman = Dorsen,=20 our intellectual partner that arranged with us this exciting = conversation,=20 and our partners from the American Society of Constitutional Law. = So, let=20 me give all of you this small token of our appreciation, and let = me remind=20 you to keep it wrapped until=85 (inaudible=85laughter). = And being=20 judges of the Supreme Court=85Norman do you want to = (inaudible=85laughter).

And with = this, I=20 would like to invite all the members of this community and the = invited=20 guests and the judges to the main dining room for a small = reception. Thank=20 you again.
###
Contact: Kathy = Thompson
Date: = 14.01.2005=20
Phone: = (202) = 274-4279
Release Category:=20 Washington College of Law = News
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